Originally posted by na grohmiti
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The Future of the Army Reserve - Discuss
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It doesn't seem to be a kosher argument on here but the US and UK boost their numbers by remunerating people for joining. Payment for all activities (including parade nights), a gratuity and bonuses for completing certain aspects (finishing recruit training). Not palatable for most and will never happen but I can't see numbers moving towards full establishment without such.
Money might be a 'dirty' solution but it works.
I don't agree with all you have said. We are volunteers first or we were. A lot of young lads I know in my unit want payment for everything and its spreeding through the unit. I think it's bad for business. Bring back the grat and continue with unpaid training nights. Keep the camps up. Recruits are paid for the bigger commitment they must make. If we start looking at pay for this and that, we will be gone, DOD have no interest in it. I'm sure your unit is pretty active with plans for training every parade night briefed to all by unit training officer and NCO. It's up to each individual to be proactive and suggest real plans to move your unit along and keep it interesting. Some Cadre will assist and some delay, we have a mixture of both. Not sure how they are in the NSR.
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Originally posted by batterysgt View PostIt's not the first and wont be the last, but how many have been disciplined both PDF &RDF.
In my experience when an member of the RDF is to be disciplined, most just go non effective. Social media is a perfect example or this forum, we are all posting under false names because we are expressing our opinions, stories and some fact openly about the DF which we normally are not allowed. I bet htmurphy if I had the time and will I would find a comment you have made which breaks military law but no action can be taken because we don't know who you are but you do and if you are a current member of the DF you would also have broken military law.
I will talk openly about my service with the NS..in the past, I will offer opinion, but I have never engaged with the press...and as I've said, breaking military law is a very easy thing to do even in thought....
I never considered any serviceman to be perfect and could tell tails that would make your hair go white....everyone has secrets.. I even know some about people here, who they are and what they have done in the past.. that's sedition by the way another chargeable offence!
There has to be self restraint around saying what and when and where online, there is bullshit attached to every aspect of life and yes freedom of the press and access to it is a privilege, but don't fcuk it up or even encourage others to do so.
I believe in the UK armed forces the spouse of a serving individual is subject to aspects of military law and mothing off to the press is not something that is tolerated.....might not be a bad idea here either.
the current debacle over who said what about ships being tied up is the ultimate PR nightmare because the press got hold of something, probably intended to get to them but it has done irreparable damage to the image of the DF, The FOCNS actions were correct.....but he's left himself open to the press via the debacle the government caused....
And he's the FOCNS.... not some two star back from camp who didn't like the pillows....but decided the Daily Slag needed to know.Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
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When I saw what was happening at the 2005 re org I knew it was doomed....The FCA higher ups sold out for 4 x Lt Colonels and bought into a graded RDF hook line and sinker to be hoisted by their own petard.
A lot of young lads I know in my unit want payment for everything and its spreeding through the unit
People were disciplined with due process and procedure (myself included) took it on the chin and continued serving.Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
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I am nearing the end of my service and I kept beliving that it would get better and the RDF would flourish but I fear I am wrong.
I am working right up against it at the moment and there are no limits to it, and the level of co-operation in resource - if it's there its offered, people are tight but thats a common song. nearly all the things I'd fix are in the Department's control not the PDFs."Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "
"No, they're trying to fly the tank"
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Just throwing in a few thoughts of my time in the T.A. that may be of use.
1. The reserves are volunteers. That means they don't have to be there, but want to be there. This puts the onus on the organisation to provide an environment that the volunteers will wish to attend. Esprit de corps does a lot, not wanting to let people down, but also feeling that as an individual you are valued and necessary. The easiest way for the organisation to express that value is payment. It is recognising that as an individual, your service to the state is worth something.
2. Also, as I'm sure Reservists know, but Regulars sometimes need reminding, it's better to lead than drive. I remember a new RSM being posted to my unit - it was his first real interaction with the TA. His first few weeks, he obviously wanted to make an impression, and parade nights became about how much beasting he could give everyone. After about six weeks, attendance had dropped from 60 odd to 20 odd on parade night. Eventually, one of the officers (very old and bold) who had three children and a son in Law serving with the unit, invited the RSM out for a drink and gently pointed out the difference between how to treat a squad of 18-19 year old privates who had to be there every morning regardless, and a squad of 25-35 year olds who had a lot of life experience, and could decide to stay at home and watch The Rockford Files rather than spending hours ironing kit and going out in the cold just to be shouted at.I
I'm not saying discipline isn't important, just that people who join up are enthusiastic. There must be some way to keep the enthusiasm up.'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html
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Originally posted by Bravo20 View PostAlso back in the day they weren't ignored for 6 to 8 months after applying. In my day they had you training during the security clearance period. Even in the 2000s there was a limited training facility that could be done pre-security clearance and a good recruiting team would be keeping tabs on people through that process. That being said I still would need to start the process on about 3 times as many people as I wanted to get through the door.
It's a way of keeping interest up, having recruits at a standard before formal training starts, and give the organisation a chance to start assessing everyone before accepting them.'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html
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Originally posted by batterysgt View Post
I don't agree with all you have said. We are volunteers first or we were. A lot of young lads I know in my unit want payment for everything and its spreeding through the unit. I think it's bad for business. Bring back the grat and continue with unpaid training nights. Keep the camps up. Recruits are paid for the bigger commitment they must make. If we start looking at pay for this and that, we will be gone, DOD have no interest in it. I'm sure your unit is pretty active with plans for training every parade night briefed to all by unit training officer and NCO. It's up to each individual to be proactive and suggest real plans to move your unit along and keep it interesting. Some Cadre will assist and some delay, we have a mixture of both. Not sure how they are in the NSR.
I also think the grat would be useful especially if the requirements for receipt were kept exceptionally tight with no strokes pulled. Maybe twenty training days (weekends and FTT training only). Passing of ITs also a requirement. It would mean only those properly committed to the unit receive and it would encourage others to do the same.
Seems relatively inexpensive and effective to me...
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Originally posted by Bravo20 View PostAlso back in the day they weren't ignored for 6 to 8 months after applying. In my day they had you training during the security clearance period. Even in the 2000s there was a limited training facility that could be done pre-security clearance and a good recruiting team would be keeping tabs on people through that process. That being said I still would need to start the process on about 3 times as many people as I wanted to get through the door.
I can’t remember the exact phrasing in the TI but it was intended to bridge the gap while waiting for s/clearance (even allows some weapons familiarisation). Everyone had forgotten about it (my old sub-Unit had used it from the start) until it came up at a conference.
But, open to correction, but it appears that currently it isn’t being done until after s/clearance has been completed.
Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
the current debacle over who said what about ships being tied up is the ultimate PR nightmare because the press got hold of something, probably intended to get to them but it has done irreparable damage to the image of the DF, The FOCNS actions were correct.....but he's left himself open to the press via the debacle the government caused....
And he's the FOCNS.... not some two star back from camp who didn't like the pillows....but decided the Daily Slag needed to know.
Originally posted by hptmurphy View PostWhen I saw what was happening at the 2005 re org I knew it was doomed....The FCA higher ups sold out for 4 x Lt Colonels and bought into a graded RDF hook line and sinker to be hoisted by their own petard.Originally posted by Flamingo2. Also, as I'm sure Reservists know, but Regulars sometimes need reminding, it's better to lead than drive. I remember a new RSM being posted to my unit - it was his first real interaction with the TA. His first few weeks, he obviously wanted to make an impression, and parade nights became about how much beasting he could give everyone. After about six weeks, attendance had dropped from 60 odd to 20 odd on parade night. Eventually, one of the officers (very old and bold) who had three children and a son in Law serving with the unit, invited the RSM out for a drink and gently pointed out the difference between how to treat a squad of 18-19 year old privates who had to be there every morning regardless, and a squad of 25-35 year olds who had a lot of life experience, and could decide to stay at home and watch The Rockford Files rather than spending hours ironing kit and going out in the cold just to be shouted at.I
I'm not saying discipline isn't important, just that people who join up are enthusiastic. There must be some way to keep the enthusiasm up.
Originally posted by Flamingo View PostIn this period, is there no way to even just do fitness training on a regular basis with the wannabe recruits - with a bit of imagination, it wouldn't have to be done anywhere security clearance is required. Cross-country running, hikes, orienteering, local park circuit's (I know a few parks and seafront in North County Dublin have exercise machines along then, for example , and few laps of Ardgillan would stretch anybody!).
It's a way of keeping interest up, having recruits at a standard before formal training starts, and give the organisation a chance to start assessing everyone before accepting them.
There is a TI there that can be used
Originally posted by Auldsod View PostAssuming we were to pay a quarter days pay for a training night, I calculate that I'd still only see 7 euro (or less) after tax. It would work out to a max of maybe the equivalent of 11-12 training days if you attended everything. The RDF isn't using it's full allocation of days so ironically, the funding is probably there already. It's less the amount of remuneration and the usefulness of it more just the feeling you are getting something small back. Younger members and recruits are far less likely to be on the top rate of tax so would benefit more.
I also think the grat would be useful especially if the requirements for receipt were kept exceptionally tight with no strokes pulled. Maybe twenty training days (weekends and FTT training only). Passing of ITs also a requirement. It would mean only those properly committed to the unit receive and it would encourage others to do the same.
Seems relatively inexpensive and effective to me...
At least 1 formation used all their mandays last year and received additional ones. I know of individuals who has done far in excess of 7 mandays (as in many multiples of 7).
It is only unit policies, people not wanting to do paperwork and shredders that are preventing it. Although an updated AFC 297 is required.
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What Dev says about mandays is true. I have seen a document, by accident, which had all RDF mandays accounted for 2018, including RDFRA days. Some people who can give the time exceed 42 and it was not just a hand full. Even rdfra people I know were up to 21 days.
DRES has said to use them up.
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Some things are done by men on the ground, a lot is done in project work thats not FTT but needs doing all the same, I'd be way over 42 . Problem for most people is its like this .
Also remember some of what we do is volunteer service, not all weekends are paid but with the removal of the Grat that pendulum swings its own way"Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "
"No, they're trying to fly the tank"
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Also just want to clarify that I don't think that the RDF should be a big earner for joiners. I think we can all agree that none of us are greatly financially benefiting from the organisation and nor do we want to. We would mostly all stay involved even if the financial conditions became worse.
I'm purely thinking from the perspective of an 18 year old or someone in their mid twenties with a useful skill. Maybe they will eventually get to a point where they are proud of and are willing to put in a LOT of their own time unpaid into the organisation but they need to be brought up to that point first.
We need to think about this issue from the mind set of a new joiner and not from that of an NCO or officer already heavily invested. If the DoD and DF aren't pragmatic in how the approach increasing the size of the reserve, it will continue to whither.
Increasing available training days and decreasing the time taken for security clearance coupled with more regular recruitment is only part of the solution (and welcome) but there need to be other incentives or we are just flogging a dead horse.
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Originally posted by trellheim View PostSome things are done by men on the ground, a lot is done in project work thats not FTT but needs doing all the same, I'd be way over 42 . Problem for most people is its like this .
Also remember some of what we do is volunteer service, not all weekends are paid but with the removal of the Grat that pendulum swings its own way
48 hours unpaid (or which 24 hrs can be counted if you do 7 days continuous FTT)
TOETs & PWT (for operational effectiveness)
Medical / AF14C (for operational effectiveness)
ITs (for operational effectiveness)
Originally posted by Auldsod View PostAlso just want to clarify that I don't think that the RDF should be a big earner for joiners. I think we can all agree that none of us are greatly financially benefiting from the organisation and nor do we want to. We would mostly all stay involved even if the financial conditions became worse.
I'm purely thinking from the perspective of an 18 year old or someone in their mid twenties with a useful skill. Maybe they will eventually get to a point where they are proud of and are willing to put in a LOT of their own time unpaid into the organisation but they need to be brought up to that point first.
We need to think about this issue from the mind set of a new joiner and not from that of an NCO or officer already heavily invested. If the DoD and DF aren't pragmatic in how the approach increasing the size of the reserve, it will continue to whither.
Increasing available training days and decreasing the time taken for security clearance coupled with more regular recruitment is only part of the solution (and welcome) but there need to be other incentives or we are just flogging a dead horse.
Twice annual recruitment is even difficult due to lack of JNCOs
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