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  • #91
    There will be a half hour of outrage on the phone in shows, people will spout nonsense, an expert will give his educated views, the presenter will get bored of the topic, as will the listeners, and its forgotten. A week later a letter will appear in the times written by an ex colonel in the air corps who was responsible for changing the tv in the officers mess from b&w to colour explaining why he thinks it's a bad idea.
    And everyone moves on.
    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
      There will be a half hour of outrage on the phone in shows, people will spout nonsense, an expert will give his educated views, the presenter will get bored of the topic, as will the listeners, and its forgotten. A week later a letter will appear in the times written by an ex colonel in the air corps who was responsible for changing the tv in the officers mess from b&w to colour explaining why he thinks it's a bad idea.
      And everyone moves on.
      That's it in a nutshell.

      It's easier to spin (justify) a purchase or commitment such as this now, whilst there is so much focus on the pandemic. Not that I think it will happen but now is an opportune moment, certainly from a justification perspective.

      As always, most reasoned citizens would support the concept of a national airlift capability, within reason of course, and go quietly about their business. The problem is the loud minority. But as you say, it'll be last weeks news in a couple of days time.

      It's like the Russian bear flights. News coverage for 2/3 days and then forgotten.

      That's what has me suspect about the Taoiseachs comments. A throwaway remark, feigning interest and asking the COS to do some investigatory work on the topic. Job done. Ball passed. Onto the next topic of business.
      Last edited by Chuck; 17 May 2020, 21:20.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
        Doesn't any purchase from the US or AMARC come with a bucketload of red tape also, given we are not in NATO?
        Slovac AF arrived in Dublin last week to repatriate its citizens in a C160 type. Would that offer much advantage over a C295 in terms of Range?
        What about leasing until we decide how much we are willing to spend?
        I would have thought it was a C27J, as that is what the Slovak AF have. The only countries operating the C-160 are France and Germany. The comparison between the C27J and the C-295 is one you do not want to go into.

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        • #94
          If 2x C295 MPA cost €221.6 Million, which a number of people consider a bit on the High side, I wonder what deal they would have got if they ordered 3x MPA and 2x Transport?
          It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
          It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
          It was a new age...It was the end of history.
          It was the year everything changed.

          Comment


          • #95
            Just to put some reality into this all.
            The last rotation to Lebanon was in an A330, the one before that was in a 787 Dreamliner.
            These are large wide-body airliners that lifted 50% of a Battalion at a time with all their baggage, spread over two chalks.
            That's the size of aircraft that is needed for Battalion rotations. Even a C-17 is too small to do that and Baldonnel is to small for an A330 or 787. So forget it.
            A third C295 or a G4 replacement is the only realistic possibility and that is a very long shot.

            The problem with Lebanon is not aircraft anyway and RHIA is still operating flights, the problem is the decision by the UN SG to suspended troop rotations.

            The problem with the Congo is the usual DoD bureaucratic penny-pinching bullshit that prevented the Air Corps from repatting them with the Learjet.

            Comment


            • #96
              Just a thought but Airbus (CASA) have 3x C295 test aircraft.
              S001 (EC-295) is the one they use for MPA and have modified once for AEW.
              S002 (EC-296) which they modified to a C-295W and recently have used to demonstrate it as a tanker.
              S166 (EC-025) which they dress up as an gunship for Dubai Air Show.

              Just perhaps they could be convinced to lease EC-025 until a new production aircraft is available in about 2 years, probably before the MPA versions arrive.
              It would be a bit difficult to jump to the front of the line as the majority of currently in the production process are for Canada and will have the necessary modification made for that customer. Next in line will be the Czechs who ordered some transport versions at the same time we ordered the MPA version. The Czechs should get their aircraft in first half of 2021.
              Last edited by EUFighter; 17 May 2020, 22:17.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by CTU View Post
                If 2x C295 MPA cost €221.6 Million, which a number of people consider a bit on the High side, I wonder what deal they would have got if they ordered 3x MPA and 2x Transport?
                The cost is not just for the aircraft, there is a whole package tied up with it, training, GSE, spares, support etc.
                A bog standard C-295 transporter costs less, more the $30-35m region.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                  The cost is not just for the aircraft, there is a whole package tied up with it, training, GSE, spares, support etc.
                  A bog standard C-295 transporter costs less, more the $30-35m region.
                  As been mentioned on this board a number of times over the years, if you buy too few, you may end up paying more in the long run. I just wonder how much of a deference in the total cost would it have been?
                  It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
                  It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
                  It was a new age...It was the end of history.
                  It was the year everything changed.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                    Doesn't any purchase from the US or AMARC come with a bucketload of red tape also, given we are not in NATO?
                    Would be most likely less than the red tape we have to go though to get the PC12's back from the USA once they are fitted with all that nice ITAR equipment!

                    And you do not have to be part of NATO, you have to be on teh good side of the Americans but they do sell AMARC aircraft to a lot of countries. For example when we where ordering our C295MPA aircraft Argentina was inking a contract for 4x P3C's to replace their worn out P3B's. Argentina is not part of NATO and is still militarily not on the best terms with one of the key NATO partners yet the Yanks approved the deal.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by CTU View Post
                      As been mentioned on this board a number of times over the years, if you buy too few, you may end up paying more in the long run. I just wonder how much of a deference in the total cost would it have been?
                      If you are talking your proposed package of 3x C295MPA and 2x C295 transports, then the cost would be more like €360-400m (incl VAT).

                      Update
                      In 2006 Portugal order 5x C295MPA and 7x C295 transports for a cost of €350m, taking inflation into account that would be €435-465m.
                      Last edited by EUFighter; 18 May 2020, 15:55.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Rhodes View Post
                        Just to put some reality into this all.
                        The last rotation to Lebanon was in an A330, the one before that was in a 787 Dreamliner.
                        These are large wide-body airliners that lifted 50% of a Battalion at a time with all their baggage, spread over two chalks.
                        That's the size of aircraft that is needed for Battalion rotations. Even a C-17 is too small to do that and Baldonnel is to small for an A330 or 787. So forget it.
                        A third C295 or a G4 replacement is the only realistic possibility and that is a very long shot.

                        The problem with Lebanon is not aircraft anyway and RHIA is still operating flights, the problem is the decision by the UN SG to suspended troop rotations.

                        The problem with the Congo is the usual DoD bureaucratic penny-pinching bullshit that prevented the Air Corps from repatting them with the Learjet.
                        Weren’t 737’s used in the past from Baldonnel (I assume with more chalks?)?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                          Weren’t 737’s used in the past from Baldonnel (I assume with more chalks?)?
                          Numerous USAF 737 (C40 Clipper) have operated out of Baldonnel. There was several refugee flights in recent times also of 737/320 class.

                          While the longest runway in Baldonnel is only 6,000ft. The reality is any of the airliners operating in and out of it for the purposes of chalks etc are nowhere near max GTOW. Max effort take offs can also be performed to utilize the runway length available.

                          A MD DC-8 operated out of Baldonnel in 2008 in support of the Chad mission.



                          A 757 also operated there in 2013.



                          More recently a 767 rotated personnel through Beirut.

                          Baldonnel, 21/11/2014. back-tracking after arrival to the line up position on runway 11 where it was loaded for the return flight to Beirut.


                          There are infrastructure considerations also. The apron area for example can handle 320/737/C130s without issue. Its simply not big enough to handle wide bodies unless you shut everything down.

                          As for the 737/320 capacity issue. Very simple, just do three chalks of 120 odd over 10 days as opposed to two 150/150 over 7 days. I'm sure J3/5 could be persuaded.

                          Haven't seen it mentioned yet but I'm pretty sure the troops in UNDOF and UNIFIL would rather a direct flight home covered by the state for their leave block as opposed to the current practice of blowing the guts of €1k and the donkey ride that goes along with it.

                          As for any real concern regarding runway length for a very long range flight. Position to Dublin and launch from there. Simple solution. I'm sure that would be the exception rather than the rule.

                          Lastly, for those wondering, RHIA isnt 'open for business' as inferred by Rhodes. The airport is closed except for a small amount of operators who meet a specific criteria. The point about the UN Sec Gen is correct however.

                          For anyone interested, here is the latest NOTAM for Beirut.

                          OLBA A0061/20 IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE EXTENSION OF GENERAL MOBILIZATION
                          TO PREVENT THE SPREAD OF CORONA VIRUS (COVID19),BEIRUT RAFIC
                          HARIRI INT'L AERODROME (OLBA) CLSD TO ALL IFR AND VFR FLIGHTS
                          WITH EXEMPTION GRANTED TO: MILITARY, SEARCH AND RESCUE, STATE
                          AIRCRAFT, HEL EMERG MEDICAL, HOSPITAL/AMBULANCE, CARGO, AIRCRAFT
                          TRANSPORTING DEPLOMATIC DELEGATIONS WORKING IN LEBANON, INT'L
                          ORGANIZATIONS' PERSONNEL, UNIFIL FORCES, PERSONNEL WORKING
                          FOR COMPANIES ASSOCIATED WITH DRILLING OPERATIONS IN BLOCK
                          NO.4, AND OTHER LOCAL TEST FLIGHT OPERATIONS APPROVED BY
                          DGCA LEBANON. NOTE: AIRCRAFT OVERFLYING BEIRUT FIR WILL NOT
                          BE AFFECTED. 08 MAY 08:52 2020 UNTIL 24 MAY 21:00 2020 ESTIMATED.
                          CREATED: 08 MAY 08:58 2020
                          Last edited by Chuck; 18 May 2020, 00:11.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                            Weren’t 737’s used in the past from Baldonnel (I assume with more chalks?)?
                            Not with a Battalion rotation, a 737 is to small for that.

                            Originally posted by Chuck View Post
                            Lastly, for those wondering, RHIA isnt 'open for business' as inferred by Rhodes. The airport is closed except for a small amount of operators who meet a specific criteria. The point about the UN Sec Gen is correct however.
                            I said RHIA is still operating flights, I never said 'open for business'. Its operating flights and the Lebanese Government has said UNIFIL can still enter and leave.

                            Comment


                            • Air freighter: Demand for air freighters is increasing due to rising amounts of air freight. Here are 800 reasons to lease a Boeing 737-800


                              Quite a detailed article on the business side of the 738 aircraft for P2F conversion.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Chuck View Post
                                Lastly, for those wondering, RHIA isnt 'open for business' as inferred by Rhodes. The airport is closed except for a small amount of operators who meet a specific criteria. The point about the UN Sec Gen is correct however.

                                For anyone interested, here is the latest NOTAM for Beirut.

                                OLBA A0061/20 IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE EXTENSION OF GENERAL MOBILIZATION
                                TO PREVENT THE SPREAD OF CORONA VIRUS (COVID19),BEIRUT RAFIC
                                HARIRI INT'L AERODROME (OLBA) CLSD TO ALL IFR AND VFR FLIGHTS
                                WITH EXEMPTION GRANTED TO: MILITARY, SEARCH AND RESCUE, STATE
                                AIRCRAFT, HEL EMERG MEDICAL, HOSPITAL/AMBULANCE, CARGO, AIRCRAFT
                                TRANSPORTING DEPLOMATIC DELEGATIONS WORKING IN LEBANON, INT'L
                                ORGANIZATIONS' PERSONNEL, UNIFIL FORCES, PERSONNEL WORKING
                                FOR COMPANIES ASSOCIATED WITH DRILLING OPERATIONS IN BLOCK
                                NO.4, AND OTHER LOCAL TEST FLIGHT OPERATIONS APPROVED BY
                                DGCA LEBANON. NOTE: AIRCRAFT OVERFLYING BEIRUT FIR WILL NOT
                                BE AFFECTED. 08 MAY 08:52 2020 UNTIL 24 MAY 21:00 2020 ESTIMATED.
                                CREATED: 08 MAY 08:58 2020
                                Someone should tell MEA as they seem to be operating a lot of services or does it come under the category "State Aircraft" as it is a state owned airline?
                                https://www.beirutairport.gov.lb/_fl...ch=&type=dprtr

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