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  • #46
    Happyman,
    I'm afraid that's were we differ. What you call bitching I call criticism. I've never said that the Air Corps shouldn't be doing these ops but rather that if they wish to fly missions involving civilians they should be afforded the same safety as if on a commercial flight. Some people for some reason have taken exception to this demanding that the AC are no less safe and that I am nothing more then a slanderer, hence the stats for all to see.
    I just don't see why the AC couldnt operate civil ops to civil standards and why some take such great exception to the notion.

    Comment


    • #47
      If the AC was so ropey our hallowed politicins would not avail of MATS.For a good while they were killing each other to avail of jollies in AC craft to get to every dogfight to impress constituents.
      Not entirely convinced with the civvies in AC craft debate.Accident victims etc dont have much choice as to who and how they are picked up by and are damn glad of it.Its not as if the AC are competing with other private non franchised rescue operators who might feel ther is no level playing field.

      To put that line further would not squad cars need to be licenced by taxi reg to convey suspects etc and the GS drivers need approp licence,ambulances likewise need one etc.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Happyman View Post
        This site should be renamed as the a forum for disgruntled CHC and CG personnel Bitch about the Air Corps. Serious lads grow up. Thought this was supposed to be a Forum where people like me that are interested in our national service man and women in that Air Corps and what they do. Not a sad bitching forum. This is a AC page not a CG/CHC/CR, get your own.
        I think you will find it's the other way round Where some people are concerned happyman. Why would the CG be disgruntled, they are the ones getting the 92's and in all likelihood will be expanding their role. As to the last bit of your paragraph, with all due respect for someone who joined in Dec and has 10 posts to your name it hasn't taken you long to get your feet under the carpet. I think you should leave that one to the moderator, people are entitled to an opinion And to provide factual info whether you like it or not, old boy.
        Last edited by Helihead; 7 February 2012, 22:51.

        Comment


        • #49
          Danno,
          I see your point ref Garda cars etc. However, it never has been about the capability of the operators or their license but rather the regulations that they operate under. The civil aviation equivalent would be the rules of the road which all road users must obey. Garda cars and Ambulances may bend the rules at their own risk on an emergency call but are liable if an accident happens, the equivalent is a commercial SAR operator, inside the rules for 90% then agreed regulations outside the rules for the final 10%, ie the calls. The difference with the Air Corps is that they never operate under any kind of civil regs or agreed civil rescue regs when operating with civies on board.

          WRT other operators and a level playing I think that is prob about to kick off with regards to the HEMS / Air Ambulance operation.

          Comment


          • #50
            In case it has been missed, the Don is also the first port of call for the AAIU and have been used frequently to move persons, tools and wreckage about. With regard to normal flight ops, the Don operates as close to JAR or EASA Ops as any civvie, but like any Military, retains the right to step outside the civvie rules to suit itself. Now, can someone elaborate how exactly it is not flying SAR Ops to the same standard as the civvies, for me, at least, because I don't know or understand enough to know the difference.

            regards
            GttC

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            • #51
              Anyone know what statutory standard other airforces and real CGs fly under for SAR/MR/CD ops where civvies might be expected to be conveyed.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Tadpole View Post
                The Air Corps have written off over 11 of their recent fleet of 54 aircraft and severely damaged another 7 aircraft. 20.4% written off and another almost 17% seriously damaged. Is that imperical enough for you?

                Lets look at per flight hr, based on approx 6000hrs per year in the last 30years the AC will have flown approx 180,000 hrs. In the same time they have written off 11 aircraft, that's 1 aircraft written off per 16,300hrs. Including the 7 seriously damaged that's 1 serious accident very 10,000hrs. Is that imperical enough for you.

                Assuming a base line of 100 pilots and a turnover of 6 pilots per year the total pilots numbers for the last 30 years is in the order of 280 pilots. That means that IAC pilots over the last 30 years have an approx. 1 in 40 chance of being killed in an accident. Is that imperical enough for you.
                Maybe you can provide your "public knowledge" sources?

                Because if you count 11 crashes/write offs in "recent times you are going back to 1969. Since then the AC have operated 107 different aircraft!



                Originally posted by Tadpole View Post
                I've never said that the Air Corps shouldn't be doing these ops but rather that if they wish to fly missions involving civilians they should be afforded the same safety as if on a commercial flight. Some people for some reason have taken exception to this demanding that the AC are no less safe and that I am nothing more then a slanderer, hence the stats for all to see.
                I just don't see why the AC couldnt operate civil ops to civil standards and why some take such great exception to the notion.
                Military (and SAR and air ambulance) flights are more risky due to the nature of the missions/environments they operate in.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Hi all,

                  LOL @ happyman. Maybe a poll that he changes his name to unhappyman for future posts.

                  Now onto more intellectual input

                  Hi Gttc, I remember that tag from a while back on Irish air Pics,if its the same person I hope your well

                  Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                  In case it has been missed, the Don is also the first port of call for the AAIU and have been used frequently to move persons, tools and wreckage about. GttC
                  Its the path of least resistance, they can provide the space required for debris inspection and cataloguing of same. Also built in security of the grounds.

                  Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                  but like any Military, retains the right to step outside the civvie rules to suit itself. GttC
                  I think that could be part of the issue, people making decisions to work outside what is deemed "safe" which in theory could be out of their expertise level in order to complete the task......

                  Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                  can someone elaborate how exactly it is not flying SAR Ops to the same standard as the civvies, for me, at least, because I don't know or understand enough to know the difference. GttC
                  while I am sure there is a flight technical side to this point it would seem there are those with more expertise than me in this area so ill let others sort that out, but what I do know is that the current difference in patient care in relation to current operations is that the crewmen in the corps in the back are trained to EMT (Emergency Medical Tech), there are prob only 2 remaining state registered paramedics in the don on operations. The current civi operations have 20 + paramedics in the back for patient treatment. the medical structure from the top down is AP - Advanced paramedic. P - Paramedic. E.M.T - Emergency Medical Tech. EFR, CFR, OFA. obviously the higher you go the better treatment you receive. Which prob is why the HSE paramedic will have to be part of the crews for the up coming operation out of Athlone. The Corps should have sent their crews away for paramedic training like they used to... but saving money was the theme it would seem much to their failure in this instance.


                  DITH
                  Hopefully the mayan's got it right and were all on a one way ticket outta here!!

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    1*PC9 (Galway)
                    1*SA365Fi (Waterford)
                    1*SA316B (Donegal)
                    1*SA342L (Baldonnel)
                    4*C172 (Clonbullogue, Finner, Shannon River, Gormanston Beach)
                    3*SF260WE (Maynooth, Cavan, Dublin)


                    Military (and SAR and air ambulance) flights are more risky due to the nature of the missions/environments they operate in.
                    Agreed. However, Civil SAR and Air Ambulance are fully regulated and have full oversight of the appropriate authorities, military flights do not. Is there any reason that the military, when operating in civil assistance roles with civilians on board cannot operate within the same regulation / oversight? The crews are well trained and capable as are the aircraft surely this isn't a huge leap.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      The point is moot Tadpole and here's why:

                      No pilot civil or military takes off without the intention of coming back safely to their families that evening.

                      No engineer civil or military releases an aircraft to fly unless they are happy that it can complete the flight safely.

                      There are inherent risks with the type of flying involved in putting a rescue team on a mountain at night. Equipment wise(NVG) and skillset wise, the Air Corps are best equipped to do the role. Better equipped than an civilian organisation operating in the country today. And that includeds the Coast Guard operation. The helicopters are by size much more suitable for the task. The military pilots are by definition, much more experienced in it.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Hi All,


                        Originally posted by Jetjock View Post
                        No pilot civil or military takes off without the intention of coming back safely to their families that evening.
                        No but it still happens, not just here but on a world wide basis for a variety of reasons..... human error is not just a made up word.


                        Originally posted by Jetjock View Post
                        No engineer civil or military releases an aircraft to fly unless they are happy that it can complete the flight safely.
                        id change that to "knowingly" releases and aircraft... as this has happened to. you would not have such great shows like aircraft investigation otherwise.


                        Originally posted by Jetjock View Post
                        There are inherent risks with the type of flying involved in putting a rescue team on a mountain at night.
                        really..... WOW nobody here realised that.


                        Originally posted by Jetjock View Post
                        Equipment wise(NVG) and skillset wise, the Air Corps are best equipped to do the role. Better equipped than an civilian organisation operating in the country today. And that includeds the Coast Guard operation. The helicopters are by size much more suitable for the task. The military pilots are by definition, much more experienced in it.
                        LOL, NVG are a great piece of kit, but are (like many things) only as good as the person using them. And your making leaps there that your flight hours cant hold up to. This conversation came up a while back on a group I was talking with Re: NVGs, even now the CG have quite a number of SAR Captains that as individuals have more NVG time than the whole AC combined... (most are ex UK forces with NVG instructor ratings that they keep current through reserve flights) And by your own definition military pilots are more experienced in their use... (even though they are ex military)

                        Dith
                        Hopefully the mayan's got it right and were all on a one way ticket outta here!!

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Lads
                          I think its good that the aircorps can have a dedicated training day were they can use a military base to carry out such training exercises with multiple MRT's. The MRT's of the north west obviously would have gained something from this and if it is only the basic's of heli operations well that can only be a good thing.

                          It has been suggested by some that the air corps will be or are the first port of call for mountain rescue work, this is simply not true. First call and responsibility is firmly in the CG's hands for Search & Rescue op's, unless your talking about a MISPER that will be co-ordinated by the civil power and in more times than not they will look to the CG for assistance. The other thing people miss here is the CG part fund IMRA, obviously they are not the sole participants of money to the MRT's as allot of fund raising has to be done to fund such an organisation. But at the end of the day MRT's will by there nature turn out to incidents and training with no questions asked, this is due to the selfless individuals involved in all voluntary organisation's around the country, from MRT's, RNLI, CG units and many CRBI's. Without these people's dedication to there chosen organisation the whole SAR world in Ireland would be a mess and we would be dealing with more and more fatalitys in our mountains, rivers and seas.

                          Strip back all the voluntary organisations and see what 24/7/365 units you are left with, 3 CG co-ordination centres a hand full of full time RNLI skippers & Engineers, some CG staff and four long range helicopter bases, garda SAU, maybee the Garda Heli if needed for search type work. and the air corps.

                          Only problem with the list above is what does the air corps have available 24/7/365, Garda chopper does not count in my book only flown by AC and owned/crewed by the Garda & maintained by private contrator. Answer from what I can see is limited availability on CASA's not 24/7, Lear-jet not 24/7 only on an adhok basis, 139's again if servicable not 24/7, 135's probably 24/7 at a push, so a unit with 8 heli's can only provide 1 on 24/7 basis, this as a tax payer is not acceptable. Now take one 135 and put it in Athlone barracks on 10 hour call with the HSE and there is a massive drain in the AC resources, one airframe 365 out of the system, with pilots and engineers. How much flex is there in this plan? When the aircraft is not on its HEMS role can it be used for air ambulance work or is it grounded at night?

                          Before the whole air corps bashing things is thrown at me please look at this from someone outside of the aircorps looking in, above is what everyone with any knowledge of the air-corps see. And as for the whole CG/CHC bitching forum issue, I was personnally at a briefing last week, and I was told by the participants that a servicing air corps officer was in 30 minutes before I arrived and was taking a chunk out of the CG & CHC, and you expect the CG/CHC people to sit back and take it, come on lads...
                          Last edited by Semper Paratus; 8 February 2012, 14:46.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            The point is moot Tadpole and here's why:

                            No pilot civil or military takes off without the intention of coming back safely to their families that evening.

                            No engineer civil or military releases an aircraft to fly unless they are happy that it can complete the flight safely.

                            There are inherent risks with the type of flying involved in putting a rescue team on a mountain at night. Equipment wise(NVG) and skillset wise, the Air Corps are best equipped to do the role. Better equipped than an civilian organisation operating in the country today. And that includeds the Coast Guard operation.
                            I dont necessarily disagree with you. Ive never stated that the Air Corps personnel or equipment cannot do the job. Nor have I stated that these are not risky operations. The issue is mitigating the risk were at all possible. Regardless of how well trained the crews are if the oversight is lacking then accidents will happen. In my opinion self oversight in any facet of life just doesnt work.
                            Now if the military wish to self regulate and oversee for military operations fair enough but why can they not have external oversight on their civil assistance tasks to minimise any risks as much as possible. Is that not reasonable?

                            The only other issue I see is that your post mainly refers to NVG and night operations. Yes the Air Corps are better equipped for night mountain ops with MRTs but TBH a lot of the searches and or recoveries are complete within the 1hr 30 min callout for the AC at night and yes some of these include use of the CG.

                            The helicopters are by size much more suitable for the task.
                            Not sure how you get this, surely it depends on the task. MRT operations arent just lifting and dumping MRT members.

                            The military pilots are by definition, much more experienced in it.
                            Experienced in what. NVG ops yes as they are the only ones doing it, in MRT operations, I really dont think so. How many live MRT ops did the IAC do last year?

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Semper p,please note the fire brigades and ambulances and 999 call centres are a fulltime 24/7 integral part of the emergency services,the AC is not an emergency service,it has capability for that purpose but is neither geared nor expected to have its entire strenght on 24/7 availability.....for what purpose.Maybe if everybody in the AC in the heli sgns was on 92k pa as in CHC then you would be entitled to expect a similiar service,such expenditure would not be justified.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                it has capability for that purpose but is neither geared nor expected to have its entire strenght on 24/7 availability.
                                The CG operation doesn't have its entire strength on 24/7 either, its just properly resourced to allow 24/7 operations on 4 bases, thats about 1/4 total strength at any one time. The questions begs, if the Air Corps aren't expected to produce similar 24/7 capabilities, what are they expected to produce?

                                .Maybe if everybody in the AC in the heli sgns was on 92k pa as in CHC then you would be entitled to expect a similiar service,such expenditure would not be justified.
                                Maybe if the AC was cut back to necessary requirements for its operation (hint, it doesn't need nearly 800 staff to maintain and operate 25 aircraft) then all the staff could be paid double CHCs 92K! Plus, its not that long since the AC was paying 20K a year to Mahogany Bomber pilots who flew twice a year to retain their incentive scheme payments and flying pay.

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