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  • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
    I think the point is that the National army were doing Amphib asaults before anyone else was doing it successfully. If we could do it in 1923, why did we lose it? Why don't we recognise it's importance? Even from a Humanitarian aid point of view, the ability to land people and tools anywhere on the island during an emergency when normal supply lines might not be available is surely a worthwhile asset?
    Actually the ability to land troops by sea was practiced on a number of occasions in the 1990s onwards you can even see it on YouTube. Defence planning in the late 1980s identified vulnerable catholic communities in Antrim and in particular the ards peninsular in case of the breakdown of civil society in Northern Ireland in the wake of a British withdrawal.

    I'm well aware of what's needed but talking about the civil war is Farsical

    Comment


    • Landing a section or two by rib is not the same as deploying a unit and all their equipment from the sea, the point being the national army could do it then, but cant even consider it now.
      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by paul g View Post
        Actually the ability to land troops by sea was practiced on a number of occasions in the 1990s onwards you can even see it on YouTube. Defence planning in the late 1980s identified vulnerable catholic communities in Antrim and in particular the ards peninsular in case of the breakdown of civil society in Northern Ireland in the wake of a British withdrawal.

        I'm well aware of what's needed but talking about the civil war is Farsical
        I'd like to see how we would land a MOWAG or even an LTAV with a RIB.

        If there was some reason why we would have to deploy troops in the Ards peninsular then we would fly them in with the AW139s rather than wait 2 days to do it by ship. The example from the civil war was to show that we did know the strategic and tactical advantage one has being able to land a large force by sea.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
          Loved that movie, sadly however I feel I'm being rational rather than negative.
          If we only ever did what was rational we would not have got very far as a species. Was it rational to go to the moon? No, but we did and even if there are some who think it never happened it was a large step for mankind. Never give up!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
            We lost it because a) the Army has always dominated the defence forces, b) because our politicians had any number of issues to deal with post IW/CW and the RN still having control gave them a way to avoid that, and c) because the Free State had such massive issues in the 20's that defence spending was always going to fall away.
            It should not be too much of a surprise as most of the fighting up to an during the civil war was land based. This meant that most of the commanders who would later become TD's only had experience of fighting a land war. There were still many Irish in the RN (even to this day some) but they had no influence on how the military developed. In fact if we contrast the BA and RN we see some of the roots of the problem. In the British Army there were "Irish" regiments, these were visibly Irish. The RN on the other hand did not have specific "Irish" ships, Irish men who join would be allocated to different ships. If they were lucky the ship might be in Kingstown or Queenstown but there was no reason why it could just not be on the other side of the world. Thus a "separate" Irish naval identity never developed the way it did with the Army regiments.

            Much of our naval tradition has been in the service of others either the RN or another countries navy. Mention Admiral Brown in Buenos Aires and you will find some who know who he was and what he did, do the same today in Wexford not so many. The same can go for many like Rear Admiral Beaufort, every sailor knows the scale but few know he was Irish. That is a bit of the problem, most of the great achievements of Irish naval personnel were for others and so not given the recognition. Even at the great British victory of Trafalgar, of the 18,000 sailors on the British side 3600 were Irish (20%). Yet that tradition of a seafaring nation is not something that is visible today.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
              If we only ever did what was rational we would not have got very far as a species. Was it rational to go to the moon? No, but we did and even if there are some who think it never happened it was a large step for mankind. Never give up!
              Given that that push for the Moon has crippled NASA ever since I wouldn't really use it as the best example. Like it or not the Global economy is pretty ****ed at the moment with few tools left in the toolbox. Even if the Fiscal Conservatives in the EU can be bounced into the stimulus plan that some want any funds we get are going elsewhere, and as usual defence is going to be far down the list..."you want to spend 250 million on a ship! That should go to Health!" And in reality given that there's still so many unknowns about this bloody disease we are very likely to see further waves and economic disruption well into next year which is going to demand continue extreme spending in the Health sector, as stockpiles will need to be built up and sustained, more staff kept on for examples.

              Sadly with the crush on the economy and the already known manpower issues I can quite easily see DOD telling the NS make do with the ships you have, Eithne will be replaced at a future date.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                Given that that push for the Moon has crippled NASA ever since I wouldn't really use it as the best example. Like it or not the Global economy is pretty ****ed at the moment with few tools left in the toolbox. Even if the Fiscal Conservatives in the EU can be bounced into the stimulus plan that some want any funds we get are going elsewhere, and as usual defence is going to be far down the list..."you want to spend 250 million on a ship! That should go to Health!" And in reality given that there's still so many unknowns about this bloody disease we are very likely to see further waves and economic disruption well into next year which is going to demand continue extreme spending in the Health sector, as stockpiles will need to be built up and sustained, more staff kept on for examples.

                Sadly with the crush on the economy and the already known manpower issues I can quite easily see DOD telling the NS make do with the ships you have, Eithne will be replaced at a future date.
                Whatever budget emerges, the duty of those spending budgets, is to ensure it enhances the capability , welfare, and ethos of a Military Force. If we continually equip with cheap basic options then we will ever be coat holders at the match. When the P20 first emerged, the CS told us it wasn't getting a gun as the EU would not pay for it, as the vessel was for FP. Ordnance saved our embarrassment by installing the 40mm Bofors. There was similar with P31 but money was found by Carl O'Sullivan, the then Chief of Staff. Civil servants should have no part in deciding weapon systems other than processing the paper work.

                Comment


                • Yes the NS was able to use (civilian) ships to land not insignificant amount of troops as well as arty and armoured cars (lashed to the deck and removed via crane at quay wall) During the Civil War.

                  But the equipment that an Irish infantry coy / Bn minus is expected to deploy operational with has changed greatly in the last Circa 100 years. Could it be replicated now? more than likely (if you are willing to risk the personnel, equipment and ship in the same way).

                  The NS has been used to transport Infantry plns On a fairly regular basis (and at least once a Coy Gp) in other to allow troops to exercise in joint Ops.






                  Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                  It should not be too much of a surprise as most of the fighting up to an during the civil war was land based. This meant that most of the commanders who would later become TD's only had experience of fighting a land war. There were still many Irish in the RN (even to this day some) but they had no influence on how the military developed. In fact if we contrast the BA and RN we see some of the roots of the problem. In the British Army there were "Irish" regiments, these were visibly Irish. The RN on the other hand did not have specific "Irish" ships, Irish men who join would be allocated to different ships. If they were lucky the ship might be in Kingstown or Queenstown but there was no reason why it could just not be on the other side of the world. Thus a "separate" Irish naval identity never developed the way it did with the Army regiments.

                  Much of our naval tradition has been in the service of others either the RN or another countries navy. Mention Admiral Brown in Buenos Aires and you will find some who know who he was and what he did, do the same today in Wexford not so many. The same can go for many like Rear Admiral Beaufort, every sailor knows the scale but few know he was Irish. That is a bit of the problem, most of the great achievements of Irish naval personnel were for others and so not given the recognition. Even at the great British victory of Trafalgar, of the 18,000 sailors on the British side 3600 were Irish (20%). Yet that tradition of a seafaring nation is not something that is visible today.
                  Or because the NS is arguably the youngest of the 3 branches of the DF
                  Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                  Whatever budget emerges, the duty of those spending budgets, is to ensure it enhances the capability , welfare, and ethos of a Military Force. If we continually equip with cheap basic options then we will ever be coat holders at the match. When the P20 first emerged, the CS told us it wasn't getting a gun as the EU would not pay for it, as the vessel was for FP. Ordnance saved our embarrassment by installing the 40mm Bofors. There was similar with P31 but money was found by Carl O'Sullivan, the then Chief of Staff. Civil servants should have no part in deciding weapon systems other than processing the paper work.
                  Unfortunately they do

                  Like it or not only Government (with DoD complying) can change that.

                  What the DF gets is what is left out of the Defence Vote (To run, maintain and purchase) after the following has been deducted (in this order):
                  - Army (DF) Pensions
                  - DoD pay, allowances, Department running costs
                  - DF pay & allowances

                  Then and only then can it buy rations, POL, clothing, stationary, PCs and far down the list comes new/additional equipment

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by paul g View Post
                    Actually the ability to land troops by sea was practiced on a number of occasions in the 1990s onwards you can even see it on YouTube. Defence planning in the late 1980s identified vulnerable catholic communities in Antrim and in particular the ards peninsular in case of the breakdown of civil society in Northern Ireland in the wake of a British withdrawal.

                    I'm well aware of what's needed but talking about the civil war is Farsical
                    Do you mean defence planning to land troops in Northern Ireland by sea?

                    Do you have a source for that?

                    And was there also defence planning to defend isolated and vulnerable Protestant communities in the event of a British withdrawal?
                    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by spider View Post
                      Do you mean defence planning to land troops in Northern Ireland by sea?

                      Do you have a source for that?

                      And was there also defence planning to defend isolated and vulnerable Protestant communities in the event of a British withdrawal?
                      Hi spider

                      the best source for Irish defence planning in the late 1980s is Tom hodson "the college", which goes up to 1990 roughly. The planners were heavily influenced by the Austrian Cold War concept of zonal defence, holding strategically important locations and using light and mobile forces to harass opfor outside of those areas. It's available on Amazon for 20 sterling or your library should be able to get you a copy.

                      Had safe areas being set up in the event of British withdrawal leading to civil strife in Northern Ireland it goes without saying that those of all communities would have enjoyed the protection of the defence forces had they requested it

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by paul g View Post
                        Hi spider

                        the best source for Irish defence planning in the late 1980s is Tom hodson "the college", which goes up to 1990 roughly. The planners were heavily influenced by the Austrian Cold War concept of zonal defence, holding strategically important locations and using light and mobile forces to harass opfor outside of those areas. It's available on Amazon for 20 sterling or your library should be able to get you a copy.

                        Had safe areas being set up in the event of British withdrawal leading to civil strife in Northern Ireland it goes without saying that those of all communities would have enjoyed the protection of the defence forces had they requested it
                        Hi Paul,

                        Thanks for the heads up - I just managed to secure a copy. It covers the period 1930-2000.

                        Hopefully it'll arrive before next week as I'm out of the country for 7 months after that. Look forward to it though, looks like a great read for a long flight.

                        You haven't really answered my question though; you state (in the context of this thread) that planning was put in place to relieve vulnerable Catholic communities in Northern Ireland (by sea).

                        What I'd like to know is whether any such contingencies were planned for (by land sea or air), for example, Protestants in South Armagh, East Tyrone or Londonderry City? I'm genuinely interested in Irish Military thinking in that period. I've read Dan Harvey's book, and it doesn't allude to any of this, rather the North was a British problem and the Irish Army's role was to protect The State, that is The Republic of Ireland.

                        Remember, this was the 80s; 150 tons of arms landed by PIRA...they posed a far bigger threat than loyalist paramilitaries ever did at any stage in the conflict.
                        'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by spider View Post
                          Hi Paul,

                          Thanks for the heads up - I just managed to secure a copy. It covers the period 1930-2000.

                          Hopefully it'll arrive before next week as I'm out of the country for 7 months after that. Look forward to it though, looks like a great read for a long flight.

                          You haven't really answered my question though; you state (in the context of this thread) that planning was put in place to relieve vulnerable Catholic communities in Northern Ireland (by sea).

                          What I'd like to know is whether any such contingencies were planned for (by land sea or air), for example, Protestants in South Armagh, East Tyrone or Londonderry City? I'm genuinely interested in Irish Military thinking in that period. I've read Dan Harvey's book, and it doesn't allude to any of this, rather the North was a British problem and the Irish Army's role was to protect The State, that is The Republic of Ireland.

                          Remember, this was the 80s; 150 tons of arms landed by PIRA...they posed a far bigger threat than loyalist paramilitaries ever did at any stage in the conflict.
                          I was in NS from 1961 to 1992 and managed to run a CMS, 2 OPV's, 1 Old ex -ILCommissioners vessel, and a HPV, never in my Service were we appraised of any planning or contingency that might involve landing troops. I did various college courses including one at Staff command level and the matter never surfaced. It is possible it was on a political wish list which can be scary, during the Cuban Missile crisis , our Corvette had its magazine stuffed with HE and a full load of DC and arming pistols, and we were told to stand by for war if the Russians attacked The US or didn't turn back the vessels loaded with Missiles. If politicians want such capabilities then they must provide the hardware at the required response levels.
                          Last edited by ancientmariner; 28 April 2020, 01:24.

                          Comment


                          • [QUOTE=ancientmariner;474982]
                            Originally posted by EUFighter View Post

                            This kind of exercise is interesting. It presupposes the selection for choice is the only pick list available . It also encourages choices from a higher echelon's production.
                            My own view is that the original genesis of the Naval Service which was anti-submarine and anti-AA based, followed by accidental excursion into MW (affordability era ), while at the same time carrying out normal Naval duties of SFP, was the best Defensive route to maintain. The ship change during own build phase gleaned our shore establishment schools of ASW, AA Dome, Torpedoes, Depth Charges etc. My own choice would be to add as many elements required by an Atlantic based island as possible to our four bigger ships covering AA , A/fast boat. ASW. Acquire smaller sortie craft as a training Squadron for younger officers and reserve training. Also acquire an MRV to do all those things already hypothesised with ability to act as Mother to all vessels including Training Squadron and major diving Tasks. At this time we can do elements of Police and HADR with some acquired surveillance by drones , MPA, and AIS Civilian. Our biggest challenge is to think Navy and maintain avenues to achieve that goal. It is crucial that the Techs support goals and not bin things that are difficult or discomforting to the norm.
                            The mods need to the P60's to give them some form of AA , A/fast boat. ASW would be substantial, but some major reworking of vessels has been done before the RN with their Type15/16 frigates and the USN with the FRAM destroyers. Basically it would involve going from a basic OPV to something more like a corvette. Systems that would be needed in order of priority could be as follows:

                            (1) ESM system: relatively low cost passive detection system, would warm of radar tracking etc.
                            (2) X-band 3d radar: as weight would be always an issue a compact radar like the Saab Giraffe 1x, gives a range of 75km and can be used for weapon cueing.
                            (3) Decoy system such as the Terma SKWS or Rheinmetall MASS
                            (4) Upgrade of FCS, replacement of the EO system with the Sea Eagle FCRO (radar and electro optical fire control system) from Chess Dynamics.
                            (5) CMS: A Combat Management System would be required to fusion all the information into a tactical picture.
                            (6) Replacement of the Rhinos with a modern RWS. The rate of fire of the Rhinos is good but they lack a modern control system for combating fast small craft. Something like the MLG27 or something similar.
                            (7) Hull Mounted Sonar: to give a basic underwater picture, would be a major modification but the minimum needed to get any form of ASW capability.
                            (8) 2-4 fixed tubes for Lightweight ASW torpedo. Currently in the West only ASW torpedoes are being manufactured, no-one makes depth charges even if some countries have them in stock still and the Swedish ASW 600 ASW rocket launcher is also no longer in production.
                            (9) CIWS: to give the vessel an active defence system, either a Phalanx or SeaRAM system as they can be dismounted quickly thus the requirement could be for 2 systems rather than 4 (need not be new builds). The OTO Melara Strales system requires a lot more integration into the system sensor and CMS system.
                            (10) AA missile system, best candidate would be the MBDA Simbad-RC system, although Saab might be able to offer something based on the RBS70NG

                            Cost would be somewhere around €200-240m (ex-VAT) to cover all four vessels. Crewing would increase so this would need to be accommodated also.
                            Last edited by EUFighter; 28 April 2020, 09:21.

                            Comment


                            • Hi spider

                              Planning in the late 1980s was essentially defensive, it was recognised that the fantasians ( who were better armed and equipped) had the ability to undertake offensive operations into the republic and it was considered highly likely that they would. Hence planning was initially defensive and influenced by Cold War Austrian doctrine which would have seen the creation of a number of defensive zones along the border and light forces would make best use of terrain between the secure zones to harass the fantasians. So to answer the question there were no plans to help anybody north of the border as the df assumed that it would be essentially on the defensive from the fantasians for a number of months

                              However in this scenario were staff planning and contained a high degree of largely theoretical planning assumptions for example hodson points out that planners put a surprising amount of effort into the discussion as to whether or not mbt should be placed in brigades or concentrated a regimental level which would make more sense if we actually had any

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                                I was in NS from 1961 to 1992 and managed to run a CMS, 2 OPV's, 1 Old ex -ILCommissioners vessel, and a HPV, never in my Service were we appraised of any planning or contingency that might involve landing troops. I did various college courses including one at Staff command level and the matter never surfaced. It is possible it was on a political wish list which can be scary, during the Cuban Missile crisis , our Corvette had its magazine stuffed with HE and a full load of DC and arming pistols, and we were told to stand by for war if the Russians attacked The US or didn't turn back the vessels loaded with Missiles. If politicians want such capabilities then they must provide the hardware at the required response levels.
                                With all due respect to you, you need to write a book (or 2) about your service.
                                If former L/S Jim Brady can manage 2 books about his service in the NS based on him getting the wrong size uniform and getting ripped off by a brasser in the city I know there would be a much larger audience interested in hearing about life as an officer in the NS of the 60s, 70s and 80s. You have given us fascinating snippets and insights here from time to time about your experiences. People deserve to have to pay to read about this.
                                Given that you probably instructed the current DFCoS on everything he knows, I'm sure he would be fully supportive too.
                                For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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