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  • Some cadets were kept on and retreaded as ATC candidates;others went straight to the Army. It wasn't about getting the message, it was about utility. A failed cadet was effectively a fish out of water and had to be found somewhere to fit into and in some cases, they were used as errand boys on doing the mundane shite until something better came up. They were usually slid sideways as soon as possible.

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    • Many of the army line officers who transfer to the Air Corps do so because they are sick of going overseas of being transferred to the other side of the country when they return. That's the only reason.

      I don't blame them however.

      There has been a serious increase in the number of wings course failures since the course has been ran as a young officer course and not a cadet course. To me, it is indicative of officers just being happy being commissioned, anything else is a bonus. There is a plethora of line 2Lts & Lts in baldonnel, much more than the establishment allows for.

      What is worrying about that abinitio training in the US is that the provider has no incentive to cut a student if they arent up to a certain standard. As a customer the AC (DoD) pays a price for a product (a qualified pilot) and they'll only be able to assess the end product once they return to Baldonnel.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Chuck View Post
        What is worrying about that abinitio training in the US is that the provider has no incentive to cut a student if they arent up to a certain standard. As a customer the AC (DoD) pays a price for a product (a qualified pilot) and they'll only be able to assess the end product once they return to Baldonnel.
        Both the US Army and the RAAF are professional who are intent on having a good relationship with us. They are just as likely of not more likely to wash someone out as we would. Training foreign pilots relies on the training nation having a good reputation, sending rubbish back home will not maintain that. Do we send half trained officers back to Malta?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
          Both the US Army and the RAAF are professional who are intent on having a good relationship with us. They are just as likely of not more likely to wash someone out as we would. Training foreign pilots relies on the training nation having a good reputation, sending rubbish back home will not maintain that. Do we send half trained officers back to Malta?
          The two pilots in Australia are not abinitio, they are both fully qualified pilots in multi engine aircraft. Not comparable.

          Once you monetize anything, it muddies the water. The customer wants a completed product, and the "manufacturer" wants to avoid losing any possible future business.

          As to your last question. Passing a cadet course is not difficult. A flying course is an entirely different ball game, and the numbers reflect that.

          Any officer that commissions and returns to Malta achieves the same pass mark as Irish officers. I'm sure some excellent officers have returned to Malta along with some really poor ones. But all met the same standard.

          Although I see where you are coming from its not really possible to draw companions between Cadet School training and sending officers abroad to do abinitio training in the US.

          Maybe they will all return and be excellent pilots and more power to them if they do. I have my doubts though and when the organization has been crying about a "pilot shortage" for the best part of a decade, it can be very easy to allow things to slip through the net to massage the numbers. As with all things in the Defense Forces, there is a senior officer somewhere who is banking on this being a successful and hopefully get promoted off the back of it. Solving the "pilot shortage" will mightily impress the civvies on the interview board.

          It will be interesting go see whether they are winged in the US or whether they will have to do any consolidation in Ireland before receiving their wings.

          Comment


          • I had a instructor who worked for one of the screening companies, flying the T-67-M200, which didn't last long in US service. For American candidates, the system was very regimented and a lot of the screening /training was very traditional "West Point" kind of stuff. It's probably old hat now but it was based on the induction procedure for the various Military services, where candidates are hustled everywhere, expected to memorise absolutely everything and act as if they are in Boot Camp. This was used as a basic filtration system. Every aspect of their educational/sporting/school/recreational lives were minutely examined and testing was continuous and candidates were given a kind of "three strikes and you're out" survival system. Missing a Memory item on a checklist three times, on any checklist, got you a "review", which was about two heartbeats from being chopped and they were relentless and ruthless. Even though many of the candidates had previous flight training and many had PPLs, that was no guarantee of success. It was also designed to be independent and not subject to outside interference and was subject to the Air Force's constant review. It was designed to reduce the future "chop" rate of cadets,as the in-service failure rate was costing a fortune. Bear in mind that the US Armed Forces have used civilian screening since before WW 2 so they must be happy with the outcome. Also, the way their current fleet is changing and evolving, means that there are pilot and aircrew shortages for some categories and a shortage of airframes for others.

            Comment


            • I can cast some degree of light on this. Foreign students at US military schools ae generally treated the same as the rest of the US students as far as the subject material goes. IE they have to meet the same standards for tests, exams, etc. Foreign students may be given additional testing to help them when struggling, this typically applies for language barriers with students who are non native English speakers. However, despite the urban legend of "foreign student XXX failed the course & was executed upon returning home", they are not carried across the line. Will they get plenty of encouragement, yes, but freebie, no. Foreign students are managed the same as the American ones. They'll do PT, ranges, fitness with their fellow classmates. If passing the US fitness test is a course requirement, they they'll do that too. Interestingly, in addition to graduation certificates, they'll be awarded the US Army basic pilot badge. That should be an interesting "foreign badge discussion" :-)

              All the schools have a foreign military detachment who handle this sort of thing administratively, make coordinations with home military, sort out things like leave/passes and admin issues. These are some of the most patient & understanding NCO's in the Army and a few Irish LT's would be a welcome break from dealing with limited English speaking students who see this as a holiday, not a school. The Egyptian officer in my course was incensed he had to get up early & run, made all sorts of complaints to the school. It went to the embassy in DC, he was basically told "stop embarrassing us you twat, and get on with it". The later arrest by the local police dept. for solicitating a prostitute was a little trickier I'm sure but we never saw him again. The other lads were grand, just got on with it, still in touch with one of them actually.

              The cost of the school, is what it costs to train a US pilot. It's all the flight hours, fuel, lodging, food, and even a breakdown of instructor cost, busses to the flightline, loan of kit, etc. Everything, by US law has to be accounted for. The salaries & allowances are a matter for the sending nation. The basic airframe at "mother Rucker" is the EC-145, they'll get that license, day/night/hoist certifications on it just like the Americans. US pilots, then are streamed to a conversion course based on type after finishing IERW (initial Entry Rotary Wing). Prior to starting IERW, US pilots have to graduate the dunker/swim course and SERE, (all hosted at Rucker), so the Irish gang might have had that pleasure too :-)

              As far as a "business case" for the US, foreign students are cost neutral, by law the military can't make a profit, only cover costs. Foreign students are admitted to schools based on a US need to foster a relationship with the sending nation, be it tied to a strategic relationship (think all the NATO countries), foreign military sales (F-35's for example) or a desire to build/maintain goodwill. I would imagine Ireland falls in the "goodwill' category as other than Javelins, Ireland doesn't buy much from the US. New approvals take time, has to go through Dept of State & Dept of Defense at the highest level & it takes time.

              Fort Rucker is in rural Alabama, bit of a shitehole TBH, outside the usual tattoo shops, dodgy bars & pawn shops, it's hours from anywhere nice, and even then we're talking Montgomery, AL, noting to write home about. Upside is, keeps you focused on flying, downside is weekends will get tedious. It's generally a 9 month course, and majority of instructors are contractors, with a few officers & warrants thrown in for good measure.

              Comment


              • Thank you for the informed response Irishrgr.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Chuck View Post
                  The two pilots in Australia are not abinitio, they are both fully qualified pilots in multi engine aircraft. Not comparable.

                  Once you monetize anything, it muddies the water. The customer wants a completed product, and the "manufacturer" wants to avoid losing any possible future business.

                  As to your last question. Passing a cadet course is not difficult. A flying course is an entirely different ball game, and the numbers reflect that.

                  Any officer that commissions and returns to Malta achieves the same pass mark as Irish officers. I'm sure some excellent officers have returned to Malta along with some really poor ones. But all met the same standard.

                  Although I see where you are coming from its not really possible to draw companions between Cadet School training and sending officers abroad to do abinitio training in the US.

                  Maybe they will all return and be excellent pilots and more power to them if they do. I have my doubts though and when the organization has been crying about a "pilot shortage" for the best part of a decade, it can be very easy to allow things to slip through the net to massage the numbers. As with all things in the Defense Forces, there is a senior officer somewhere who is banking on this being a successful and hopefully get promoted off the back of it. Solving the "pilot shortage" will mightily impress the civvies on the interview board.

                  It will be interesting go see whether they are winged in the US or whether they will have to do any consolidation in Ireland before receiving their wings.
                  Try 3 decades

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                    While the details were in the public domain, the scale and reasoning was not. From a rotary wing perspective, it looks as if the Air Corps is no longer self-sufficient. For a supposedly neutral country that is a bad move, and big decisions need to be made quickly, before the blue uniform becomes an extinct species.
                    While life on civvy street may not be all rosy in the garden, those who make the transition are probably happy to take the pay cut, for the work/life balance that a civvy job brings. Mate of mine still laughs when he tells of when he left the NS as a techie(spark, but with IT) going to a civvy job when he was sent on training courses where he didn't have to share a room with 10 others, and when the course overran and he missed connecting trains and had to get taxis he wasn't out of pocket, and didn't get a bollicking from the boss for letting something that was beyond his control happen. He did enjoy, 2 weeks after starting his new job, getting a phonecall from the Orderly room telling him he was on a GoH the following week, and the audible confusion from the other end when he told them he would have to clear it with his boss first.
                    The DF, as an organisation, treats it's people very poorly. Not as a matter of policy, but because of the number of people who have shit days, passing the shit on to those below. Pay is just the final straw. Fix that first, then fix the rest.
                    ROTFLMFAO.... (bold text)
                    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by irishrgr View Post
                      I can cast some degree of light on this. Foreign students at US military schools ae generally treated the same as the rest of the US students as far as the subject material goes. IE they have to meet the same standards for tests, exams, etc. Foreign students may be given additional testing to help them when struggling, this typically applies for language barriers with students who are non native English speakers. However, despite the urban legend of "foreign student XXX failed the course & was executed upon returning home", they are not carried across the line. Will they get plenty of encouragement, yes, but freebie, no. Foreign students are managed the same as the American ones. They'll do PT, ranges, fitness with their fellow classmates. If passing the US fitness test is a course requirement, they they'll do that too. Interestingly, in addition to graduation certificates, they'll be awarded the US Army basic pilot badge. That should be an interesting "foreign badge discussion" :-)

                      All the schools have a foreign military detachment who handle this sort of thing administratively, make coordinations with home military, sort out things like leave/passes and admin issues. These are some of the most patient & understanding NCO's in the Army and a few Irish LT's would be a welcome break from dealing with limited English speaking students who see this as a holiday, not a school. The Egyptian officer in my course was incensed he had to get up early & run, made all sorts of complaints to the school. It went to the embassy in DC, he was basically told "stop embarrassing us you twat, and get on with it". The later arrest by the local police dept. for solicitating a prostitute was a little trickier I'm sure but we never saw him again. The other lads were grand, just got on with it, still in touch with one of them actually.

                      The cost of the school, is what it costs to train a US pilot. It's all the flight hours, fuel, lodging, food, and even a breakdown of instructor cost, busses to the flightline, loan of kit, etc. Everything, by US law has to be accounted for. The salaries & allowances are a matter for the sending nation. The basic airframe at "mother Rucker" is the EC-145, they'll get that license, day/night/hoist certifications on it just like the Americans. US pilots, then are streamed to a conversion course based on type after finishing IERW (initial Entry Rotary Wing). Prior to starting IERW, US pilots have to graduate the dunker/swim course and SERE, (all hosted at Rucker), so the Irish gang might have had that pleasure too :-)

                      As far as a "business case" for the US, foreign students are cost neutral, by law the military can't make a profit, only cover costs. Foreign students are admitted to schools based on a US need to foster a relationship with the sending nation, be it tied to a strategic relationship (think all the NATO countries), foreign military sales (F-35's for example) or a desire to build/maintain goodwill. I would imagine Ireland falls in the "goodwill' category as other than Javelins, Ireland doesn't buy much from the US. New approvals take time, has to go through Dept of State & Dept of Defense at the highest level & it takes time.

                      Fort Rucker is in rural Alabama, bit of a shitehole TBH, outside the usual tattoo shops, dodgy bars & pawn shops, it's hours from anywhere nice, and even then we're talking Montgomery, AL, noting to write home about. Upside is, keeps you focused on flying, downside is weekends will get tedious. It's generally a 9 month course, and majority of instructors are contractors, with a few officers & warrants thrown in for good measure.
                      Excellent post

                      Would expect no less that foreign students have to meet the same standards as domestic students
                      RE: dunker course, I think there is a dunker in NMCI in Cork, which the Air Corps pilots and crews have to complete? Someone in the know can confirm this one
                      "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

                      Comment


                      • It is geared more for the Offshore industry, but is available for their use. Any aircrew who routinely operate in small aircraft over water should do it.
                        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                          It is geared more for the Offshore industry, but is available for their use. Any aircrew who routinely operate in small aircraft over water should do it.
                          I heartily agree. I've flown over water many times and the prospect of ditching in the Irish Sea or the Atlantic is not to be taken lightly. Any time I fly over water, we go through the emergency drills before we take off. Trying to get out of a Cessna or a Cherokee in the sea would not be easy.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                            I heartily agree. I've flown over water many times and the prospect of ditching in the Irish Sea or the Atlantic is not to be taken lightly. Any time I fly over water, we go through the emergency drills before we take off. Trying to get out of a Cessna or a Cherokee in the sea would not be easy.
                            Heli's being top heavy presents an extra complexity. Hard enough to get out of the back seat in a C172 in normal conditions.
                            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Truck Driver View Post
                              Excellent post

                              Would expect no less that foreign students have to meet the same standards as domestic students
                              RE: dunker course, I think there is a dunker in NMCI in Cork, which the Air Corps pilots and crews have to complete? Someone in the know can confirm this one
                              All FW and RW pilots and aircrew complete dunker training on a periodic basis.

                              Comment


                              • The Full FOI documents, as mentioned in the article above can be found at https://www.thestory.ie/2021/01/05/d...-and-security/
                                For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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