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  • tech 5 and tech 6 while nice are still not what is needed to retain folks. Unless you doubled them.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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    • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
      Again Irish Examiner 4/12/2020 a piece on Defence review 2020 high- lighting direct line from MOD/DOD to Mil units bypassing General Staff. Command really lying with the senior civil servant. Ratio of control being one CS to 23 mil pers.
      To go back to the article, DE NCOs have been in place for a number of years now

      On the other issue, Civil Servants don’t write the legislation (but turkeys don’t vote for Christmas) politicians do.

      COS doesn’t have command (nor is the accounting officer) which is major issue.

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      • Originally posted by DeV View Post
        To go back to the article, DE NCOs have been in place for a number of years now

        On the other issue, Civil Servants don’t write the legislation (but turkeys don’t vote for Christmas) politicians do.

        COS doesn’t have command (nor is the accounting officer) which is major issue.
        Unfortunately drafting and constructing legislation is done within the Civil Service to meet in some manner the wishes and direction that the ruling pols want to go in. The drafters build in a flexibility that controls immediate cost and future spending and retain yea and nay within a CS cohort that start most things with The Minister directs, due to contingencies arising from fiscal restraint, expenditure is not contemplated in the foreseeable future. The CS wield all power.

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        • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
          Unfortunately drafting and constructing legislation is done within the Civil Service to meet in some manner the wishes and direction that the ruling pols want to go in. The drafters build in a flexibility that controls immediate cost and future spending and retain yea and nay within a CS cohort that start most things with The Minister directs, due to contingencies arising from fiscal restraint, expenditure is not contemplated in the foreseeable future. The CS wield all power.
          Taking our whole Defence strategy into account, and the needs of Modern Defence, particularly to know the presence of immediate and imminent incursions in peacetime, and to give a credible response to attacks in wartime , we are falling behind in all levels of required capability.
          In the period 1940- 1961 we had some semblance of a balance DF with a minimal sharp response in land , sea, and air. Since then we have continually wound down our normal conventional capabilities DF wide and not retained crucial skills or acquired modern systems such as all dimension Surveillance, missile systems for all arms, interdiction capability on sea and in the air. We are back in the era of trench warfare and line of sight observation on land, no observation seawards or in the air, no AA Defence, no ASW, and No MCM. Unfortunately with the loss of skills we have also shed the training capability that went with them, leaving us with a SKILLS shortfall.

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          • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
            Again Irish Examiner 4/12/2020 a piece on Defence review 2020 high- lighting direct line from MOD/DOD to Mil units bypassing General Staff. Command really lying with the senior civil servant. Ratio of control being one CS to 23 mil pers.
            Another piece today by Secretary of RACO on the Commission on Defence. Interesting read pointing out today's marching in State at 8100-tragic,tragic!! Surely somebody must be steering the ship to navigate our way out of this un-necessary mess. Money has to be provided and future budgets must NOT be provisional, returnable, or unspent.

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            • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
              Another piece today by Secretary of RACO on the Commission on Defence. Interesting read pointing out today's marching in State at 8100-tragic,tragic!! Surely somebody must be steering the ship to navigate our way out of this un-necessary mess. Money has to be provided and future budgets must NOT be provisional, returnable, or unspent.
              In today's Sunday Independent much about the war against Coronavirus. The headlines read "It is like going to War without the Proper Weapons". How apt and how descriptive .

              Comment


              • Pages 44 - 47

                A human slant on the current state of play in the Permanent Defence Force

                Publishing platform for digital magazines, interactive publications and online catalogs. Convert documents to beautiful publications and share them worldwide. Title: Signal Summer 2019, Author: Universal Media, Length: 68 pages, Published: 2020-11-25
                "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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                • Originally posted by Truck Driver View Post
                  Pages 44 - 47

                  A human slant on the current state of play in the Permanent Defence Force

                  https://en.calameo.com/read/006194269e5450792534b
                  And an interesting piece on Mali in there too.
                  'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by spider View Post
                    And an interesting piece on Mali in there too.
                    It seems to me that obvious problems within the PDF and RDF were triggered by a train of fiscal measures implemented by Central Government not least reduction in strengths, barrack closures, facility closures, capability reductions and formation deletions. It seems that the Cure to this self-inflicted wound wiill be left to the Commission on Defence. it will be difficult, although classed as Independent, they are however selected and are made up of 15 members some retired, some ex-military.
                    Other than the retired ranked 5 members,( Norwegian Admiral. Finnish general, ex-Irish Chief of Staff, Irish Lt.Col.,and an ex- Army Doctor) the remaining 10 are Ex-Civil servants or heads of University or security agencies with a 60% Female and 40% Male gender balance. Coming up with decisions to produce a balanced fighting machine, adequately paid, housed, and equipped is going to be interesting. We must take into account that Northern European countries rely heavily on Reserve Forces as in the case of Norway they have about 20,000 regulars and 40,000 reservists. The Finns on the other hand are heavily into conscripts using a standing Force of 8000 and 23,000 conscripts with 30,000 males, and 32,000 Females being available for conscription annually. It is obvious both countries can house and equip their Force model.

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                    • Is it fair to say the problems started when we went from 3 brigades to 2? At least with 3 brigades, the under-strength units weren't expected to traverse half the country for duties. Now everyone is expected to be 3 places at once, and that is without the ATCP commitment we had 10/15 years ago.
                      Then, with the army having a much smaller public profile, the smaller arms, the Navy And Air Corps, have zero public profile to attract potential recruits?
                      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                        Is it fair to say the problems started when we went from 3 brigades to 2? At least with 3 brigades, the under-strength units weren't expected to traverse half the country for duties. Now everyone is expected to be 3 places at once, and that is without the ATCP commitment we had 10/15 years ago.
                        Then, with the army having a much smaller public profile, the smaller arms, the Navy And Air Corps, have zero public profile to attract potential recruits?

                        Establishment was pre-last reorg 10,500 for 3 Bde DF. The Recession and ECF brought the strength down to approx 9,500 personnel.

                        Establishment is currently 9,500 for the 2 Bde DF. Now of course a Bde is supposed to be a lot more than 1,000 personnel.

                        As at 30 September 2020, the strength was 8,529. That to me is the more pressing issue, we could make the establishment 100,000 but if the strength remains as is there is no point.

                        Of course, the low strength means that a lot of personnel and resources are constantly having to be dedicated to training inductees, career courses, specialist courses.... just to replace those leaving.

                        Looking at the ODF, climate survey and PSPC reports, IMHO, In many cases it is middle & front line management (Comdt, Capt, Sgt, Cpl) and specialist/tech where the gaps are most felt.
                        Last edited by DeV; 6 January 2021, 15:02.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                          Establishment was pre-last reorg 10,500 for 3 Bde DF. The Recession and ECF brought the strength down to approx 9,500 personnel.

                          Establishment is currently 9,500 for the 2 Bde DF. Now of course a Bde is supposed to be a lot more than 1,000 personnel.

                          As at 30 September 2020, the strength was 8,529. That to me is the more pressing issue, we could make the establishment 100,000 but if the strength remains as is there is no point.

                          Of course, the low strength means that a lot of personnel and resources are constantly having to be dedicated to training inductees, career courses, specialist courses.... just to replace those leaving.

                          Looking at the ODF, climate survey and PSPC reports, IMHO, In many cases it is middle & front line management (Comdt, Capt, Sgt, Cpl) and specialist/tech where the gaps are most felt.
                          9500 for a 2 brigade Army, Air Corps and Naval service you mean. With a NS establishment that remained unchanged in spite of the fleet being increased from 7 to 9 ships? You MUST increase the establishment in these circumstances. Impossible to fill vacancies that exist on the ground when the vacancies don't exist on paper. An added complexity also, flagged 2 decades ago but never addressed properly in the DF, what do you do when someone goes on Maternity? Who fills their appointment for the duration of the leave?
                          For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                            9500 for a 2 brigade Army, Air Corps and Naval service you mean. With a NS establishment that remained unchanged in spite of the fleet being increased from 7 to 9 ships? You MUST increase the establishment in these circumstances. Impossible to fill vacancies that exist on the ground when the vacancies don't exist on paper. An added complexity also, flagged 2 decades ago but never addressed properly in the DF, what do you do when someone goes on Maternity? Who fills their appointment for the duration of the leave?

                            True enough

                            And an AC that now has an additional standing task of EAS daylight/7

                            Plus normal barrack guards which sometimes sees students on arduous courses detailed

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                              9500 for a 2 brigade Army, Air Corps and Naval service you mean. With a NS establishment that remained unchanged in spite of the fleet being increased from 7 to 9 ships? You MUST increase the establishment in these circumstances. Impossible to fill vacancies that exist on the ground when the vacancies don't exist on paper. An added complexity also, flagged 2 decades ago but never addressed properly in the DF, what do you do when someone goes on Maternity? Who fills their appointment for the duration of the leave?
                              Leaving the Naval Service and Aer Corps to one side, the strength of 2 Bdes would be, normally, in the region 9000 personnel plus elements for reserve. If we trim it back to 4 Bns and supports you could have slimmed down Bdes of 3000 each including supports and reserves. It is a big ask to roll out two Bdes of fighting personnel from a usable pool of about 6000 all ranks excluding Navy and Aer Corps.

                              Comment


                              • Any point in looking at one (fully equipped, manned and supported) brigade? Put the rest of the manpower into the NS and AC?

                                I’m just curious why not, and wait to be enlightened why it’s a bad idea...
                                'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
                                'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
                                Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
                                He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
                                http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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