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  • Originally posted by DeV View Post
    Tend to agree so is solution civvy DoD employees or civil servants ?

    Option C: Uniformed military personnel as they need to be covered as combatants

    Comment


    • Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
      Option C: Uniformed military personnel as they need to be covered as combatants
      Only if they are going into combat (World of Tanks doesn’t count!).
      'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
      'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
      Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
      He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
      http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Fantasia View Post
        Terrible idea. Skillsets and ranks should be seperated.

        Ranks have leadership responsibility. Having a degree in IT does not fill one with leadership abilities
        Specialists wear a military/naval uniform with Specialist badges. They are subject to Mil. authority but have none outside their operational station. If they are housed and fed their begin at rate in Dublin could be 40k live-in or 58k live- out. Check with US Gov. They use Specialists widely including Chelsea.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
          Specialists wear a military/naval uniform with Specialist badges. They are subject to Mil. authority but have none outside their operational station. If they are housed and fed their begin at rate in Dublin could be 40k live-in or 58k live- out. Check with US Gov. They use Specialists widely including Chelsea.
          I believe you misunderstand the US use of the rank specialist. It is very much an enlisted rank and is in fact the most common rank in the US Army.

          It originated in World War 2 to allow for varying levels of technical grades granding higher pay scales but not necessarily higher levels of authority.

          The modern US specialist grade is at their E-4 rank. It's at at the same pay grade as a Corporal but critically they are not NCOs. In our money, the equivalent would be a 3* star private with say two year's seasoning.

          The name of the rank is misleading as there actually no 'technical' or 'specialist' connoctations to it any more. Most US infantry would be specialists for example. In fact 25% of all US Army soldiers (officer and enlisted) are specialists.

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          • The US army had a separate rank structure for certain specialists, such as pilots. Neither NCO nor Officer they fall in to a number of WO grades. (Not the same as our WO, who is equivalent to BSM).
            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
              The US army had a separate rank structure for certain specialists, such as pilots. Neither NCO nor Officer they fall in to a number of WO grades. (Not the same as our WO, who is equivalent to BSM).
              Directly correct. WO1 to WO5. Used by some services more than others.

              Most notable use is by the US Army. Most of their pilots are Warrant Officers.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Auldsod View Post
                Directly correct. WO1 to WO5. Used by some services more than others.

                Most notable use is by the US Army. Most of their pilots are Warrant Officers.
                Watch yourselves, whenever there's any mention of the US Army's WO ranks, some loon turns up demanding that members of other militaries salute them....

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Auldsod View Post
                  I believe you misunderstand the US use of the rank specialist. It is very much an enlisted rank and is in fact the most common rank in the US Army.

                  It originated in World War 2 to allow for varying levels of technical grades granding higher pay scales but not necessarily higher levels of authority.

                  The modern US specialist grade is at their E-4 rank. It's at at the same pay grade as a Corporal but critically they are not NCOs. In our money, the equivalent would be a 3* star private with say two year's seasoning.

                  The name of the rank is misleading as there actually no 'technical' or 'specialist' connoctations to it any more. Most US infantry would be specialists for example. In fact 25% of all US Army soldiers (officer and enlisted) are specialists.
                  The question was how do we recruit a certain range of specialists. The answer is direct employment at an attractive retentive pay scale. Sort out relationships to suit discipline and where people sleep and eat.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                    The question was how do we recruit a certain range of specialists. The answer is direct employment at an attractive retentive pay scale. Sort out relationships to suit discipline and where people sleep and eat.
                    A study of US Army Cyber shows that specialists and Technicians are recruited at WO and Officer levels. The WO levels are Cyber Warfare Technician, Electronic Warfare Technician, Cyber Operator Specialist. The Officer candidates are recruitable as Cyber Operations Officers. All these employments are direct entry and the process is available to read on line. Not everybody is a specialist but I do concede that hard edge units such as Rangers, Seals etc would be classified and paid as Specialists.

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                    • From memory, the BA had bands and classes of pay within a rank, which would be used to increase pay for qualifications over and above the basic pay for that rank, and could mean somebody getting higher pay than the rank above depending on qualifications. I don't know if it still applies, but don't see why it wouldn't.
                      Last edited by Flamingo; 22 March 2020, 10:07.
                      'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
                      'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
                      Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
                      He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
                      http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
                        From memory, the BA had bands and classes of pay within a rank, which would be used to increase pay for qualifications over and above the basic pay for that rank, and could mean somebody getting higher pay than the rank above depending on qualifications. I don't know if it still applies, but don't see why it wouldn't.
                        Sounds similar to Technical Pay here. The small allowances are not enough in most cases to retain people.

                        Even those on Tech 6, the highest rate of allowance, are on around €6000 more than the standard rate of pay. An IT guru Sgt is still on well under €50,000 gross a year. When he can walk into another job starting on €70,000 and not have to deal with any of the inconveniences of being in the Defence Forces
                        Last edited by Fantasia; 22 March 2020, 10:38.

                        Comment


                        • Friend of mine left the NS many moons ago from the Comp cen, went into a civvy job in a tech multinational for double the money. His boss was a former PO/RRT. It would take a lot more than €50k a year to attract him back with his skillset.
                          Then again, that would force an increase in similar tech jobs in the rest of the PS, most of whom hold HEO grade at just over €50K per year.
                          For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                          Comment


                          • I thought IT skills such as Software engineer etc. degrees weren't recognised in the defence forces for tech pay?
                            "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
                            "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by morpheus View Post
                              I thought IT skills such as Software engineer etc. degrees weren't recognised in the defence forces for tech pay?
                              Would they receive tech pay in the region of tens of thousands of euros so as to attract those with said qualifications?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by morpheus View Post
                                I thought IT skills such as Software engineer etc. degrees weren't recognised in the defence forces for tech pay?
                                They're not. Currently the only way for enlisted personnel to qualify for Tech 5/6 pay is to go through the CIS trainee technician scheme. A scheme which is unfit for purpose given the modern needs of the DF.

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